With four of the legal challenges cleared as of this week, all signs point to congestion pricing starting Saturday, right after midnight. New Jersey has been the fiercest opponent for reasons I still don’t understand.
Tribecan and transportation consultant Charlie Komanoff monitored the “lawyer chit-chat” all week, and as of a couple of hours ago, the judge hearing the New Jersey federal lawsuit ruled to deny the state’s request for a temporary restraining order. That was the last hurdle.
Drivers will be charged a toll on their E-ZPass once per day when they enter what the MTA is now calling the “Congestion Relief Zone,” FKA the Central Business District south of 60th Street. Still except are the highways — the FDR Drive, West Side Highway and the Hugh L. Carey Tunnel connecting to West Street. The tolling devices kick in when you cross into the grid.
NB: These rates get us through 2027. They go up to $12 for passenger vehicles in 2028, and $15 in 2031.
The peak period toll rate will apply from 5a to 9p on weekdays and 9a to 9p on weekends. All other times, drivers will be charged off peak toll rate.
Some more details:
Congestion pricing is nothing more than a government sponsored scam.. Its time for everyone to cover their plates, take off their ez pass transponders and just drive through the congestion pricing zone for free. Nobody should have to pay this. This is taxation without representation. If nobody pays then government can’t do anything about it. Hochul needs to be impeached for being a terrible governor.
Yeah ..go ahead and do that and have your car impounded or seized. One less car clogging the streets.
I think you should reacquaint yourself with the definition of ‘taxation without representation’, sir.
How is this tax without rep? You elect officials and they voted for it. You get to vote, you have representation. People need public transit to work, and emergency vehicles cant be caught up in the worst traffic anywhere transporting someone with lung issues from breathing toxic fumes from cars. I think this is a very good idea.
Lung issues only from car fumes? Very dramatic Patrick.
@Will I agree with you not only is it a tax it is a regressive tax.
This a burden on drivers and those with lower incomes while fare evasion just keeps getting higher on the buses and subways. Businesses will see a drop in revenue from a loss of traffic and costs for small business will go higher as vacancy rates in lower Manhattan are already at around 20 percent.
It is a user fee, not a tax and a progressive one at that. The users, drivers and car owners, are mostly richer than the people using mass transit. If they live far away, they can drive to mass transit entry points and enjoy a few precious minutes of sweet privacy. The war on cars is a good war. I hope this is a first of many campaigns for de-Moses-ification. Lets make Penn through running. Let’s tax parking lots to encourage more housing conversion and price on-street parking properly. While we’re at it, we can install proper gates so subway fare evaders can’t get on our trains. We need to re-make the city for people!
There was drama tonight as NJ applied for a temporary restraining order on the tolls, and there was a hearing this afternoon where the decision didn’t come until 8:30p, denying NJ’s request. They will appeal (again!) tomorrow (Sat) to a higher court, but all signs are still go.
How can another state (NJ) have any say on what tolls this state (NY) imposes within its own limits?
Not a lawyer, but, the complaints all rely on the same tools used to block development of any kind – that the “environmental review” process, in this case the one built into the federal highway laws, was insufficient and failed to properly account for and mitigate the extra pollution that will land in NJ. I think these environmental review lawsuits are usually garbage, but they’re an incredibly effective tool for slowing stuff down.
I think if you got down to the very bottom of the constitutional basis for these laws in this instance it’s got to be the interstate commerce authority granted by the constitution to congress, but so far none of the relevant challenges have been constitutional.
@mg: Your layman’s hunch matches up with what Tribeca resident (and attorney) Jess Coleman wrote yesterday, on Twitter:
“NJ’s basis for its case is the Dormant Commerce Clause, which appears nowhere in the constitution and is an incredibly amorphous area of law.
“The judge rejected NJ’s case, except for one tiny point, which even the judge admitted in a footnote was dealt with in the supplemental record, but declined to consider it because of a technicality.
“The judge then decided to remand to a federal agency to do… something. It’s not clear. It was a made up problem with a made up remedy.
“So here we are. A democratically enacted piece of legislation, creating a simple toll, is currently in limbo because our legal system has become an undemocratic, Kafkaesque institution that creates bespoke solutions for blocking progressive policies.
“I hope the judge makes the right decision. But this saga is a perfect illustration that our entire system of policymaking in this country is severely broken.”
As you probably know, Jess is running in the 2025 Democratic primary to unseat CM Chris Marte. Jess’s legal acumen, policy chops, and, yes, unequivocal support for congestion pricing are some of the reasons I’m backing his candidacy.
My family supports Chris Marte.
We especially appreciate his authenticity, his interest in constituents and his work.
Not interested in more luxury real estate candidates.
I spoke with Chris Marte a few times. I dont believe he is good for NYC, and certainly not for actually getting housing done. He voted against the city of yes.
Chris Marte is a nice guy, but soooo ineffective. I only wish enough residents would come out to vote for city council so someone else can take his place and actually accomplish something.
Jess Coleman is exactly what this city needs less of. Wasn’t there a referendum on this exact type of candidate two months ago? Read the room. 70% of New Yorkers do not support this tax. These are the same people that have been on the wrong side of every issue since Bloomberg left office. Nauseating level of entitlement, selfishness and privilege. If somebody like Jess Coleman or Brad Lander or (insert any progressive politician that has destroyed our city) really cared about congestion, they could start by shutting down their voting block’s weekly anti-American protests. Or they could stop widening bike lanes. Or they can advocate for elected officials to stop using tax-payer funded black cars so they are forced to deal with the consequences of their bad policy like the rest of us. But they don’t, obviously, because they only advocate for things that inconvenience other people. Never themselves. And the concept of a fair and equitable outcome is alien to them.
Congestion pricing as a policy is a brazen cash grab by the MTA funded by those who stand to benefit most: the rideshare apps. Corporate capture. If the MTA needs to raise money, they can start with the $700mm of annual fare evasion they fail to collect or cut their executives’ salaries. Not levy another tax on one of the most heavily-taxed jurisdiction in the country. Regarding the ride share companies: do some research and see who the largest donors are pushing this tax. Then ask yourself why.
Now consider the impact on first responders, service workers, small businesses, and the outer-boroughs – and how selfish it is to force these people to use public transportation given its descent into chaos (ironically, the same people who advocate for congestion pricing are the reason the subways are so dangerous). And if that isn’t enough, consider how services may wane because of the added cost burden on their employees. What do you think an additional tax will do to costs for everything from hiring a moving company to getting groceries?
As a general rule, when the worst people in the room support something – it is probably bad policy. This is no different. It will benefit the very privileged few at the expense of everybody. Stop me if you’ve seen how this movie ends.
@JA:
“Benefiting the very privileged few at the expense of everybody” is a good description of unchecked use of private autos in our transit-rich and gridlocked borough.
Please try putting aside your wide-ranging anger and considering congestion pricing on its merits and demerits rather than conflating it with a bunch of ills, some admittedly real but some overhyped, that have little or nothing to do with CP itself.
As for candidate Jess: at least credit his forthrightness in unabashedly supporting CP, compared to the incumbent who, rather than leading, played all sides of the issue and accomplished nothing.
Exactly right.
Exactly right JA.
The Commerce clause is not “nowhere in the constitution”. It’s in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3. And it is anything but “dormant”. In fact, it is the constitutional basis for most of the federal law in this country.
Yes, the Commerce Clause (which grants Congress the right to regulate interstate commerce) is in the Constitution. That’s not at issue with congestion pricing. The so-called Dormant Commerce Clause is an implication arising out of the commerce clause (not in the constitution itself) that says the states cannot “interfere” with interstate commerce. That’s what’s at issue in the congestion pricing lawsuits (in addition to the environmental review questions).
what I find frustrating is that the folks from NJ are claiming “environmental” impact on the neighborhoods near the GW bridge on the theory that those seeking to avoid the toll will use the GW rather than the Lincoln or holland tunnels. First, the only way this holds water at all is as it applies to drivers “passing through” Manhattan, because regardless of how you enter Manhattan, once you go below 60th street, you get charged. So the “extra” cars they are predicting will end up in the roads in northern NJ can only apply to those folks who otherwise would take one of the tunnels to “enter” Manhattan, but then not go anywhere in congestion zone. I find it hard to believe that there are that many people who do this. Also, NJ’s claim amounts to “screw people in NYC, let them have all the “grid lock” and “pollution”caused by NJ folks coming into NYC. We want to live in the suburbs, enjoy all the benefits of driving into NYC, but bear none of costs to maintain roads and a good mass transportation system.”
Is there a useful resource that clearly shares the details of this plan? Very confusing to figure out how this impacts residents in Tribeca who reside within the zone. For example, if a Tribeca resident drives to the West Village or Chelsea via the West Side Highway, are they charged since they technically left the zone while on the highway? If that same resident does not take the West Side highway and instead takes the side streets to West Village or Chelsea (ie Hudson St or 6th Ave); I’m assuming they are not charged?
No. I have written about this a lot — look at this post and others. In short, if you start and end in the zone, and do not cross a river or 60th Street, you are not tolled.
I shared this with my NY office folks. Most appreciated it
https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2025/01/05/congestion-pricing-has-begun-here-is-the-only-explainer-you-need
I’m trying to figure out what will prevent massive amounts of vehicles from driving down West Street (out of congestion zone) to enter BPC (also out of congestion zone AFAIK) to park. Am I missing something?
You’re missing the fact that your hypothetical vehicles will be charged once they exit West St and enter BPC. So no incentive to do your workaround (unless your destination is Bklyn, which you can drive to via the Bklyn Battery Tunnel w/o paying the congestion charge, though you’ll pay the incumbent TBTA toll).
for my ASP people – assuming you have been parked in tribeca and are just moving your vehicle to a new spot for alternate side parking – if you drive west down N Moore, onto west st, and re-enter the zone via Vestry/Hubert/Chambers – is there a charge?
No.
No, you have to enter a highway and then cross 60th or a bridge or tunnel to get charged.
Isn’t West Street the same thing as the West Side Highway? This may be the source of my ongoing confusion…..If you have your car in Tribeca, then drive it across West Street to BPC, and then come back into Tribeca by re-crossing West Street, haven’t you entered the zone? Same question regarding the example someone else gave earlier: driving your car from Tribeca to West St. (exiting the zone, right?), then North on West St. to the Village, and re-entering the zone in the Village I’m missing why there’s no toll in either case.
NO! Because the highways are exempt. And you can drive around the zone as much as you want as long as you don’t leave it.
But BPC is not part of the congestion zone. On the map it looks like the areas on the water side of West Street and the FDR are not included.
Actually it is, as is Pier 40 and Waterside. That is just a graphic representation of the plan…
I checked two of the BPC intersections with West Street and didn’t see anything that looks like the cameras they have installed at 60th Street,
https://gothamist.com/news/mta-congestion-pricing-infrared-cameras
so how will they know when cars enter?
You enter the zone either at the bridges, tunnels or 60th Street.
They’re installed on the undersides of the foot bridges that cross West Street.
You do that Tom and tell us how that works for you. Also, maintenance money grows on trees. Right?
Previously posted that this is a tax not congestion charge as it is not waived at off peak say 7pm (as in other cities like London). This allows people to come in for free to go to a restaurant, enjoy a night out etc and visit on a weekend. The can enjoy the city and critically support NY businesses. If it stays as is it should called a straight tax should be called that.
Would only now add that timing is also odd as the subway and public transport is getting more and more dangerous. Will we see the city and state move towards making the public transport safe again or continue policy of soft/zero policing ? If you want people to move back to public transport it can’t just be tax them so they can’t afford to get to work or visit the city (can it ?) but has to be make public transport more comfortable and safe. I like public transport but would hesitate to use it at certain times of the day or to take my family on it. Pushing people under trains, random attacks, getting set on fire, it’s hard to blame people for wanting to use a car. I am sure stats will say crossing the road is more dangerous but I myself can control how to cross a road and maximize safety and minmise risk. I can’t control for random attacks or events in a crowded environment that is recognized to have low policing and law enforcement.
Love the city, feel lucky to live here, not going anywhere. Just surprised that the tax revenue raised, which is massive compared to equivalent global cities – 15-20% higher than say London)-s not leading to better transport etc. Where is it all going ?
Well, you can come in any time without a toll by public transportation. That is why it is called a toll and not a tax…
well normally agree with TC on most things but this is one of those rare occasions I think you are being generous. Effectively it’s a tax, most people don’t have a choice and the alternatives are not what they should be – as published here. It’s raised at every part of the day regardless of congestion which actually ebbs and flows. It’s designed to maximize revenue not to manage traffic. No new roads have been built, they have all been previously paid for. Other tolls normally produce a new road. There is no free time particularly in the evenings when restaurants, the arts etc want people coming to them. Other congestions charges are not charged at peak hours. It’s a tax.
But it’s happening. Hope it leads to real investment and improvement in the Subways. Worth checking in on that here in one and two years time.
Most people don’t have a choice? They do, though they might not like their choices.
@Will: Though regular TC readers will know that I differ on many points in your two posts, I agree with you that the peak toll period is excessively long, particularly on weekends. But I mostly want to compliment you for your measured tone — a refreshing vibe that the rest of us (myself included) will do well to emulate. Thank you.
From a Tribeca perspective, I do think some of the worst traffic is on weekends caused by drivers heading to NJ via the Holland Tunnel. This congestion has a terrible impact in Tribeca especially on Hudson Street. I’m not optimistic that congestion pricing will have a major impact on tunnel traffic but the peak hours feel appropriate given tunnel volumes on weekends. Would just be great if the city would do more to improve actual road conditions in neighborhoods where bridges and tunnels flow into residential communities. A lot of the worst traffic is caused by these choke points and the effort to enforce basic traffic laws is minimal.
How many people ride the subway each day? Apx 5million. 5million people ride the subway each day. Let that sink in. How many people get hurt, pushed, stabbed? A handful. I’m not denying subway violence. But I do object to sensationalizing what is happening on the subway.
I’ve taken the subway for 30+ years. My kids have grown up in manhattan taking the subway fo 20+ years. I feel pretty safe. Partially because the stats say so, but also because we stay aware, head out of the phone. We all do what we can to control our safety. But with al due respect, You can no longer control getting hit by a car, regardless of when you want to cross the street, than you can control Subway violence, but you can remain aware and dilligent. This is NYC afterall.
I agree. Glad you said that.
Could this make the NJ to Brooklyn (and vice versa) route through Staten Island and the Verrazano Bridge more attractive than the Holland Tunnel/Manhattan Bridge via Canal Street option? One can hope.
One glaring omission from this discussion is that there is effectively zero discount for people who live in the zone. The paperwork and officious bureaucracy involved in applying for a low income or disability discount is egregious. In London (which this program was allegedly modeled from), residents of the “congestion zone” get a 90% discount. And, as another person noted, the congestion high fee time period in London ends at 7pm to encourage people to come into the city for dinners, shows, etc. This is effectively an additional tax for many people who live in the zone (as all the costs to businesses will be passed on to consumers, a huge burden for workers, sick or elderly who need to drive as public transportation is not a viable option, and will be a nail in the coffin for already struggling small businesses in the zone. Government greed and stupidity at its worst.
There is an exemption for people with a disability that hinders their ability to take public transportation. Details are on the MTA website.
Would love a common sense candidate that is focused on clean streets, safe subways and reasonable development that brings commerce back to the streets of downtown. Enough with wasting money on ridiculous vanity projects, mental-health initiatives that are worthless and policies that hurt the people who work, live and raise families downtown. IT NEEDS TO CHANGE.
That’s basically Jess Coleman’s entire platform: http://jessfornewyork.com.
Right. Perspective her is essential, rather than focusing on a few vivid (and admittedly horrifying cases): Which is actually safer as a means of travel, subway vs. car?
“Last year, there were far more traffic fatalities than subway fatalities in New York City. More than 250 people died in traffic-related incidents in 2024, compared to 10 on the subway, according to NYPD data.”
– Gothamist article (published yesterday) – https://gothamist.com/news/feeling-anxious-about-riding-the-nyc-subway-heres-a-guide-for-staying-safe-underground
(I assume the 10 number refers to murders, and does not include suicides or things like subway-surfing…?)
Marcus,
With respect….
There are serious crimes other than homicide.
For example, attempted murder, assault, rape….
If you think about the people who are important in your life, especially women, are they mostly comfortable about traveling on the subway late at night?
To the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens? Particularly high crime areas?
Then walking from the subway? Or waiting for a bus and then walking home at night when it is dark?
Yes it is possible to die due to a car crash/being hit by a car.
As for the overall crash data, it is also worth noting that many of these are occurring late at night and involving drivers who are under the influence and/or involving some other illegal activity.
It is troubling that so many people, fortunate to be living in Manhattan in convenient apartments, are not aware of what it is like for those not in that living situation.
Yes, thank you for the good points, and those complicate any comparison of total safety calculations.
It seems that a major concern is about traveling late at night, because subways are relatively (and sometimes very) empty then. If it’s true though that as you said that most car crashes also happen late at night, then late night travel in general is a risk either way, though a different risk, and not clear which is worse. Nevertheless, admittedly it’s surely a greater risk of being the victim of *assault* crimes on the subway late at night than there is driving late at night. There is some risk of assault even when driving, though: car-jacking, road rage, vulnerability while walking to or from parked car, etc, but that is likely a lesser risk. So, I can see that in some cases the car would be safer especially late at night.
Again, though, as you point out, the complete comparison would have to factor in both the risk of death and the risk of of other kinds of assault. To make a determination would also requiring giving those different types of horror a “weight” to decide which risk we would prefer to take. I don’t know if anyone has done this kind of sophisticated calculation; anyone know of proper analyses out there? Of course, we would prefer to have no risk either way. So we need to reduce crime.
Reducing crime would also reduce the “accidental” deaths from cars, since as you note, many of those come from people under the influence, or breaking the law in other ways – speeding, reckless driving, running red lights, etc.
So, if anything, the obvious solution is to reduce crime overall, so we are less likely to be victims of it, whether we use public transit or drive. NYC has clearly massively failed in that goal.
Of course, I still agree that subways should be far safer, and there needs to serious enforcement against fair evasion. I have yet to see one person given a ticket for fare evasion since the pandemic. Instead, I see people jump turnstiles right in front of the “security” who do nothing.
Is the safety issue just a subway problem though, or a general NYC problem of an increase in crime? If the powers that be are weak on enforcing the law, and punishments to lawbreakers are weak or non-existent, then that’s a problem for the whole city, including but not limited to subway riders.
I asked the security guy at the subway what he can do when people hop the turnstile or fare evade, he said he can only tell them to pay their fare. He can’t ticket or enforce in any other way. Only the cops can issue fines. He is there more as a deterrent for people. So that’s what the MTA is doing. I have seen cops ticketing kids who fare-evade. Again they ticket kids (mostly young male), not adults. So no worries, we’re in good hands.
With all the extensive news coverage and varying points of view, I have not seen a definitive answer to the most important questions.
1- How many vehicles paying the toll are necessary for the MTA to meet its financial goals?
2- How is this vehicle volume that meets financial goals, less than current vehicle volume, thereby diminishing congestion?
On Sunday I went to the MET from BPC, using West End / FDR. Came back same way and parked across our apt in BPC. Will I pay the toll? In theory yes, despite making zero sense. Guess will find out as soon as I get the EZ pass statement
yes
Yesterday I exited the Holland Tunnel, crossed Laight St to the West Side Hwy, went north and turned into Pier 40 to park. I looked at my EZPass account this morning and don’t see a congestion toll. The tunnel toll is there but nothing else. Maybe it takes longer than a day for congestion tolls to appear… we’ll see.
Yes, I saw a report yesterday stating it would take longer for the charges to show because they have to look at the type of vehicle and time the vehicle entered the CBZ..
@Makes_You: I fwd’d yr comment to (“Gridlock”) Sam Schwartz, who as former NYC Traffic Commissioner knows E-ZPass ins and outs. He asked if you can post an update in a few days, so he can follow up. Or email me at komanoff@gmail.com, either way is fine. Thanks.
Similar situation here – I crossed the GWB around 5 PM last night, drove down the WSH / West St, entered the zone on Canal, went south on Varick/W Broadway and west on Reade to the garage. The bridge toll has hit my account, but no congestion fee.
@Komanoff — please explain why I don’t get a discount on my GWB toll when I would if I crossed the Hudson by tunnel further south. Certainly it’s not because they can’t correlate the bridge toll and congestion toll as being connected with the same trip. I won’t even bother to ask why I get charged for all of maybe 10 minutes of driving in the zone but could cause congestion for 17 or 18 hours a day driving around the zone as long as I didn’t leave it.
@Nicole V:
Thx for your E-ZPass story that jibes with @Makes’. I’ve fwd’d yours to Gridlock Sam as well. Fyi, Sam is on vacay but of course is monitoring the rollout; I’ve urged him to do his best to pick up the pace in getting info.
The realpolitik reason for omitting a GWB toll credit is the old slippery-slope problem: the floodgates would open to similar pleading re the Triboro, the Verrazano, etc., shrinking the toll “base.” At least the criterion adopted for CP — only tunnel trips get (partly) credited — has the clear rationale of applying to trips directly into the zone.
The policy reason is that trips into the zone that crossed the GWB do generate considerable upstream congestion during the 6 plus mile section from 178th to 60th Streets. Perhaps you (understandably) believe that CP architects (MTA) and proponents (like me) are concerned only about in-the-zone congestion. Fact is, congestion reductions outside the zone due to CP will be far larger than reductions within the zone. 60th Street was simply the most logical place to draw the line (due to abundant transit, Central Park, Queensboro Bridge, longstanding def’n of the central business district, etc.).
Last, Mayor Bloomberg’s original (2007) CP proposal would have tolled intra-zone driving. It also would have required 390 camera/gantry stations — costly, intrusive and, for some, a privacy problem. So intra-zone driving gets a pass.
Moral of the story: CP is “imperfect” (I would put it that way), or “riddled with contradictions” (others say). Either way, it promises to be hugely beneficial, with benefits far outweighing costs. Happy to elucidate how I back up that belief; best to do that offline.
I have been corresponding offline on the Congestion Pricing issue with Charles Komanoff, and while I disagree with him, (and have previously on other issues), I find that he is diligent and honorable in presenting his positions. It is important to have constructive conversations, especially in a time when there is a tendency to demonize those with whom there is disagreement. Trying to find common ground is important, and when we can’t, we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
So here’s a thought. Watching the news it appears a BUNCH of law enforcement resources are being deployed to catch congestion toll evaders. That’s a good thing…violators should be prosecuted. But why isn’t a comparable effort being expended to apprehend and prosocute bus/subway fare evaders? The interwebs are rife with videos of police standing idly by as fare beater after fare beater jumps the turnstyle.
My question also. Where’s the enforcement against fare evasion?
@Makes_You_Go + @Marcus:
The value of busting license-plate tampering goes far beyond the added revenue from the congestion toll (and “incumbent” TBTA and Port Authority tolls). It has value in stopping these motoring miscreants from violating red-light and speeding laws that endanger and too often injure and even kill other road users. With NYPD having basically given up active enforcement of driver violations, automated, camera-based ticketing is the public’s only line of defense, but it requires that license plates be visible and valid.
Enforcement goes down, crashes go up:
“For 8 Months, Traffic Enforcement on New Jersey’s Highways Plummeted”…and immediately crashes went up
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/08/nyregion/new-jersey-state-police-slowdown.html
Now I’m more confused. Yesterday I drove across Canal St from Pier 40 on my way to my mechanic in Queens. I returned via the Williamsburg Bridge. Neither trip is reflected on my EZPASS account. My earlier trip noted above through the Holland Tunnel still doesn’t appear, either. I’m wondering why.
And BTW, I crossed Houston St yesterday from Allen St to the West Side Hwy, a trip I’ve done many times before and I’ve never seen lighter traffic. Fingers crossed congestion pricing is actually working.
It took 3 days for the toll to hit my E-Z pass.
I drove from UES to battery park city, literally went in and out around 1 block as we live right by the west end highway.
It’s only 4 days that the congestion pricing is in effect and already their is less traffic below Chambers Street. The shops and restaurants also have less business. In 3 to 4 months we will begin to see the cost of food rise. Eventually our rents will rise to cover the higher cost of servicing the property we live in. In a year from now we will feel unhappy as we realize how much more it’s costing us to live in the zone than those lucky residents who live above 60th Street.
The charge from Monday showed up today but it was for $9… didn’t reflect the $3 credit I should have gotten for going through the Holland Tunnel.
I wish they would have carved out some level of exclusion for downtown residents. While our neighborhood is mostly residential, it’s still zoned commercial with no local alternate side of the street parking. When returning to manhattan, paying this fee to access my parking facility isn’t sitting right.
@ Jill F: Are you sure you’re being made to pay the congestion toll b/c of some unfortunate aspect of your garage’s location? I’m trying to picture why that would be. Please let us know, thanks.